Is There Still a Need for Water-Cooling?

For me, water-cooling began out of necessity. I water-cooled my first PC nearly ten years ago, when, living in a house with a flat roof, my bedroom got incredibly hot in the summer months. I was already hooked on overclocking at the time and strove to save money by buying cheap, but very overclockable hardware. Unfortunately, the combination of the house's architecture and high system temperatures meant that my PC was intolerably noisy and unstable.

Infuriated, I made the move to water-cooling - not a particularly easy one as there were few guides and even fewer off-the-shelf components back then, which resulted in regular trips to the local DIY store to search for parts. I initially water-cooled my CPU, and my overheating and noise issues were solved instantly - my PC went from a hot, noisy box to a cool and quiet machine of wonder. I had more overclocking headroom than before too.

Every one of my main rigs since then has also seen me spend entire weekends building and leak-testing. In fact, the last three PCs I've built have had a water-cooled CPU and GPU, as well as the various hotspots on the motherboard too. However, a lot of today's hardware simply doesn't need water-cooling as urgently as its equivalent back in the day. People still want water-cooling, but it seems to be a desire that's separate from the need to actually cool the hardware.

Even as far back as the release Intel's first mainstream quad-core CPUs, such as the Core 2 Quad Q6600, air coolers were quickly becoming potent enough for newcomers to question the significant outlay involved with water-cooling. The new heatpipe-clad tower coolers were becoming more efficient at every step, and there's usually an air cooler that will enable you to push all but the hottest running CPUs to the max, albeit with additional noise.

However, with Intel's LGA1155 CPUs, we've seen time and time again that air coolers such as Thermaltake's Frio and BeQuiet Dark Rock Advanced are more than able to provide just as much overclocking headroom as a decent water-cooling kit, and with similar noise levels too. Our current LGA1155 thermal test kit is a case in question - we've overclocked our Core i7-2600K to a lofty 4.6GHz, and both the aforementioned coolers handled this overclock admirably.


Graphics cards are a slightly different matter, however, as we've found just as much reason to water-cool the current graphics cards such as the GeForce GTX 590 3GB as any previous generation. In fact, even mid-range graphics cards such as the GTX 560 Ti 1GB get quite warm and noisy under load, and many third party coolers haven't been able to tame them significantly.

Motherboards are a bit of mixed bag, though. I'd go as far as saying that I've had far fewer failures and stability issues since I've been water-cooling the motherboard in my PCs - the hot-running chipset on LGA1366 motherboards, for example, is almost certainly the reason for quite a few dead systems in our lab, as well as other problems I've read about in various forums.


However, water-cooling your motherboard is an expensive business - full cover blocks can retail for over £100, and most LGA1155 motherboards simply don't require shedloads of voltage either. With Intel and AMD's next-generation high-end CPUs on the horizon, it will be interesting to see how future families of motherboards fare on a day to day basis - will LGA2011 be another hot-running LGA1366 for example?

Aside from noise reduction, where water-cooling still has the edge in a few key areas, there is one other reason to invest in water-cooling. It looks fantastic. There's a reason why we award points to cases that look good, and why modding projects are so popular. Lots of us want to have a cool-looking PC and are willing to spend money achieving that goal. Thankfully, the water-cooling industry has taken notice and strived to meet the demand for a diverse and flexible range of hardware.

You only have to look at websites such as Aquatuning, Chilled PC and FrozenCPU to see the huge the range of components on offer these days, which makes it very easy to make a unique water-cooled PC. In addition, the huge range of gear is appealing to those who want to go one step further than just bolting a load of off-the-shelf parts together, and instead want to either mod their PC or even build it from scratch.

Even if the next generation of hardware doesn't notably benefit from water-cooling, there's always a small gap between air cooling and extreme cooling, and there will still be a huge market for it, for the simple reason that it's cool.

What do you think the future has in store for water-cooling? Have you been put off for any reason, or do you swear by it? Let us know in the forums.

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Microsoft: the dream is to sell 100 million Windows phones per year

This week at Microsoft's Worldwide Partner Conference, Kevin Turner, Microsoft's COO, announced during his keynote that the company hopes to sell up to 100 million Windows Phone devices annually. "We have dreams and aspirations that we can get to 100 million units per year with that single deal," he said.

The software giant plans to mainly lean on Nokia, which agreed to switch to Windows Phone as its primary platform. Nokia's first Windows phone is codenamed Sea Ray. At the conference, Microsoft also showed off four unannounced Windows phones from Acer, ZTE, Fujitsu, and Samsung.

Windows Phone users should keep their eyes peeled for Windows Phone 7.5 (codenamed Mango), which is expected to begin rolling out this fall. Check out our preview of the update from last month.

There is talk that Microsoft is already working on the next Windows Phone updates, codenamed Tango and Apollo. Last year, we heard of that the second major update to Windows Phone will be Apollo, due toward the end of 2012. At some point Microsoft will have to release Windows Phone 8. One of these updates could indeed be Windows Phone 8, or an update to Windows Phone 8.

It's generally accepted that Windows Phone is not selling well. AT&T Mobility CEO believes things will start to pick up with codename Mango and as the Windows Phone Marketplace gains more apps. Nokia CEO Stephen Elop meanwhile argues that Windows Phone scores better than Android and iPhone with consumers, but OEMs are doing their best work for Android. He believes that once Nokia starts doing its best work for Windows Phone, the platform will take off.

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U.S. Recognizes Rebels in Libya

At the meeting, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said that Colonel Qaddafi?s government no longer had any legitimacy, and that the United States would join more than 30 countries in extending diplomatic recognition to the main opposition group, known as the Transitional National Council.

?We will help the T.N.C. sustain its commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and national unity of Libya, and we will look to it to remain steadfast in its commitment to human rights and fundamental freedoms,? Mrs. Clinton said.

In an audio speech carried on Libyan television, Colonel Qaddafi appeared as determined as ever to fight on, and dismissed the recognition of the rebel government by the leading powers.

?Trample on those recognitions, trample on them under your feet,? he told thousands of supporters in the coastal city of Zlitan, who had gathered for a rally broadcast on state tv, Reuters reported. ?They are worthless,? he said.

In the early stages of the war, Western nations were reluctant to extend recognition to the rebels, not knowing who they were and worrying about their possible ties to Al Qaeda and other militant groups. Over the months, though, those fears have been assuaged, and most nations are lined up behind the transitional government.

The step allows the United States and other countries to turn over to the rebel group some of the Libyan financial assets that have been frozen in foreign banks, to help underwrite its efforts to oust Colonel Qaddafi and to administer the part of the country that the rebels control.

?We have a lot of frozen funds around the world, and now it would be up the country to release a certain percent under certain conditions,? said Mahmoud Shammam, a rebel spokesman. ?We assured them in many ways that we are heading towards a democratic state and with the support of allies, friends we would make that happen.?

Italy?s foreign minister, Franco Frattini, said that Italy would unfreeze some $140 million of Libyan assets and give them to the rebels, with more than $500 million to follow.

Other nations, like France and the United States, will now find it easier to hand over frozen Libyan assets to the rebels. The United States has more than $30 billion in frozen Qaddafi-government assets.

The Turkish foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, said that Turkey saw ?merit in the suggestion for the release of $3 billion from the frozen assets of Libya under U.N. supervision.? He suggested opening lines of credit to the rebels to meet their ?urgent need for cash? before the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Turkey, he said, had already started a $200-million credit line.

Mr. Davutoglu told reporters Thursday night that Colonel Qaddafi culd remain in Libya if an agreement is reached, according to the Turkish Daily News.

In the rebel held city of Zintan, on the high plateau of the mountains in Libya?s west, where local men have pushed the Qaddafi militatry back on several fronts, a group of elderly men sat in the shade beside the main mosque.

They were buoyed by the news from Istanbul, which all of them had heard.

?The recognition of America has opened a door for us from Africa to the world,? said one of them, Mohammed el-Judaya.

Whatever the geopolitics, however, the men made clear they had ongoing practical concerns. Much of the mountainous food is short of food, fuel and water, phone service is mostly cut off and the Qaddafi forces are not far away. The war goes, with life stalled and hardships ahead.

?We have no money for Ramadan,? said Muftah Benghazi. ?This is difficult for us.?

Even with a growing list of international allies, the rebels have made only halting progress in wresting control of the country from Colonel Qaddafi?s forces. On Wednesday, the British foreign secretary, William Hague, told Reuters that NATO was intensifying its military campaign in Libya.

Yet, with a ?no-boots-on-the-ground policy? in Libya, the Western nations have found it hard to dislodge Colonel Qaddafi from power, as his forces have dug in around the capital, Tripoli, and other strategic cities where he retains at least some support among the civilian population.

Sebnem Arsu reported from Istanbul and Steven Erlanger from Paris. J. David Goodman contributed reporting from New York and C.J. Chivers from Zintan, Libya.

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Is There Still a Need for Water-Cooling?

For me, water-cooling began out of necessity. I water-cooled my first PC nearly ten years ago, when, living in a house with a flat roof, my bedroom got incredibly hot in the summer months. I was already hooked on overclocking at the time and strove to save money by buying cheap, but very overclockable hardware. Unfortunately, the combination of the house's architecture and high system temperatures meant that my PC was intolerably noisy and unstable.

Infuriated, I made the move to water-cooling - not a particularly easy one as there were few guides and even fewer off-the-shelf components back then, which resulted in regular trips to the local DIY store to search for parts. I initially water-cooled my CPU, and my overheating and noise issues were solved instantly - my PC went from a hot, noisy box to a cool and quiet machine of wonder. I had more overclocking headroom than before too.

Every one of my main rigs since then has also seen me spend entire weekends building and leak-testing. In fact, the last three PCs I've built have had a water-cooled CPU and GPU, as well as the various hotspots on the motherboard too. However, a lot of today's hardware simply doesn't need water-cooling as urgently as its equivalent back in the day. People still want water-cooling, but it seems to be a desire that's separate from the need to actually cool the hardware.

Even as far back as the release Intel's first mainstream quad-core CPUs, such as the Core 2 Quad Q6600, air coolers were quickly becoming potent enough for newcomers to question the significant outlay involved with water-cooling. The new heatpipe-clad tower coolers were becoming more efficient at every step, and there's usually an air cooler that will enable you to push all but the hottest running CPUs to the max, albeit with additional noise.

However, with Intel's LGA1155 CPUs, we've seen time and time again that air coolers such as Thermaltake's Frio and BeQuiet Dark Rock Advanced are more than able to provide just as much overclocking headroom as a decent water-cooling kit, and with similar noise levels too. Our current LGA1155 thermal test kit is a case in question - we've overclocked our Core i7-2600K to a lofty 4.6GHz, and both the aforementioned coolers handled this overclock admirably.


Graphics cards are a slightly different matter, however, as we've found just as much reason to water-cool the current graphics cards such as the GeForce GTX 590 3GB as any previous generation. In fact, even mid-range graphics cards such as the GTX 560 Ti 1GB get quite warm and noisy under load, and many third party coolers haven't been able to tame them significantly.

Motherboards are a bit of mixed bag, though. I'd go as far as saying that I've had far fewer failures and stability issues since I've been water-cooling the motherboard in my PCs - the hot-running chipset on LGA1366 motherboards, for example, is almost certainly the reason for quite a few dead systems in our lab, as well as other problems I've read about in various forums.


However, water-cooling your motherboard is an expensive business - full cover blocks can retail for over £100, and most LGA1155 motherboards simply don't require shedloads of voltage either. With Intel and AMD's next-generation high-end CPUs on the horizon, it will be interesting to see how future families of motherboards fare on a day to day basis - will LGA2011 be another hot-running LGA1366 for example?

Aside from noise reduction, where water-cooling still has the edge in a few key areas, there is one other reason to invest in water-cooling. It looks fantastic. There's a reason why we award points to cases that look good, and why modding projects are so popular. Lots of us want to have a cool-looking PC and are willing to spend money achieving that goal. Thankfully, the water-cooling industry has taken notice and strived to meet the demand for a diverse and flexible range of hardware.

You only have to look at websites such as Aquatuning, Chilled PC and FrozenCPU to see the huge the range of components on offer these days, which makes it very easy to make a unique water-cooled PC. In addition, the huge range of gear is appealing to those who want to go one step further than just bolting a load of off-the-shelf parts together, and instead want to either mod their PC or even build it from scratch.

Even if the next generation of hardware doesn't notably benefit from water-cooling, there's always a small gap between air cooling and extreme cooling, and there will still be a huge market for it, for the simple reason that it's cool.

What do you think the future has in store for water-cooling? Have you been put off for any reason, or do you swear by it? Let us know in the forums.

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Blog - Lessons Interface Designers Can Learn From Teledildonics

It might be surprising to consider that human-computer interaction, once the province of engineers and experimental psychologists, would find itself on a trajectory that is converging with that of sex toys, once the province of sleazy urban sex shops and pornographers.

? Jeffrey Bardzell and Shaowen Bardzell, "Pleasure is Your Birthright": Digitally Enabled Designer Sex Toys as a Case of Third-Wave HCI

What do a bioinformatician who worked on the human genome project and then did design work for Nike, a couple who worked in semiconductors at Nortel, and engineers from Ericsson, Apple and NASA all have in common?

All are designing latest-generation, digitally-enabled sex toys.

Built from alloys and medical-grade plastics, equipped with Li-ion batteries and remote connections to computers, MP3 players and the Internet, these devices resemble alien artifacts from a future in which the Internet of Things has pervaded even our most intimate moments. They are totems from a world post-sex singularity.

Constructed through an entirely user-focused process of iterative experimentation, they are also significantly better designed than 99% of the human-computer interfaces on the market. They are some of the only existing successful examples of so-called "third-wave human-computer interaction," which takes human interaction with machines into the realm of "experience, emotion and embodiment."

Or, in other words: if designers want to know why people love their iPads, they'd do well to understand why they are no less fiercely devoted to Nomi Tang's Better than Chocolate, which has a "tangible user interface to control vibration patterns and intensity," or Je Joue's SaSi, which has a "user-programmable vibration design interface."

All of the designers interviewed by the Bardzells used the sorts of tools you'd expect any high-end industrial designer to use -- 3D prototyping, extensive user testing -- but once they'd gotten beyond merely making something functional, they made the same leap that creators of all iconic devices do: They figured out how to tweak their product in order to sell an idea, for which their product is merely an embodiment.

The founder of Jimmyjane:

Jimmyjane ... is not a vibrator company, but rather a concept about extending sexiness throughout the day, about this notion that fundamentally we never feel better than when we feel sexy. So, why not have that and access that consistently throughout the day in all sorts of different ways? One way certainly is actual physical sexual contact with the body and with another, but also obviously there all sorts of other phases of sexuality that permeate our lives. It extends to how we dress, it extends to all sorts of other sort of rituals that are fundamental to our lives.

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Blog - Lessons Interface Designers Can Learn From Teledildonics

It might be surprising to consider that human-computer interaction, once the province of engineers and experimental psychologists, would find itself on a trajectory that is converging with that of sex toys, once the province of sleazy urban sex shops and pornographers.

? Jeffrey Bardzell and Shaowen Bardzell, "Pleasure is Your Birthright": Digitally Enabled Designer Sex Toys as a Case of Third-Wave HCI

What do a bioinformatician who worked on the human genome project and then did design work for Nike, a couple who worked in semiconductors at Nortel, and engineers from Ericsson, Apple and NASA all have in common?

All are designing latest-generation, digitally-enabled sex toys.

Built from alloys and medical-grade plastics, equipped with Li-ion batteries and remote connections to computers, MP3 players and the Internet, these devices resemble alien artifacts from a future in which the Internet of Things has pervaded even our most intimate moments. They are totems from a world post-sex singularity.

Constructed through an entirely user-focused process of iterative experimentation, they are also significantly better designed than 99% of the human-computer interfaces on the market. They are some of the only existing successful examples of so-called "third-wave human-computer interaction," which takes human interaction with machines into the realm of "experience, emotion and embodiment."

Or, in other words: if designers want to know why people love their iPads, they'd do well to understand why they are no less fiercely devoted to Nomi Tang's Better than Chocolate, which has a "tangible user interface to control vibration patterns and intensity," or Je Joue's SaSi, which has a "user-programmable vibration design interface."

All of the designers interviewed by the Bardzells used the sorts of tools you'd expect any high-end industrial designer to use -- 3D prototyping, extensive user testing -- but once they'd gotten beyond merely making something functional, they made the same leap that creators of all iconic devices do: They figured out how to tweak their product in order to sell an idea, for which their product is merely an embodiment.

The founder of Jimmyjane:

Jimmyjane ... is not a vibrator company, but rather a concept about extending sexiness throughout the day, about this notion that fundamentally we never feel better than when we feel sexy. So, why not have that and access that consistently throughout the day in all sorts of different ways? One way certainly is actual physical sexual contact with the body and with another, but also obviously there all sorts of other phases of sexuality that permeate our lives. It extends to how we dress, it extends to all sorts of other sort of rituals that are fundamental to our lives.

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Is There Still a Need for Water-Cooling?

For me, water-cooling began out of necessity. I water-cooled my first PC nearly ten years ago, when, living in a house with a flat roof, my bedroom got incredibly hot in the summer months. I was already hooked on overclocking at the time and strove to save money by buying cheap, but very overclockable hardware. Unfortunately, the combination of the house's architecture and high system temperatures meant that my PC was intolerably noisy and unstable.

Infuriated, I made the move to water-cooling - not a particularly easy one as there were few guides and even fewer off-the-shelf components back then, which resulted in regular trips to the local DIY store to search for parts. I initially water-cooled my CPU, and my overheating and noise issues were solved instantly - my PC went from a hot, noisy box to a cool and quiet machine of wonder. I had more overclocking headroom than before too.

Every one of my main rigs since then has also seen me spend entire weekends building and leak-testing. In fact, the last three PCs I've built have had a water-cooled CPU and GPU, as well as the various hotspots on the motherboard too. However, a lot of today's hardware simply doesn't need water-cooling as urgently as its equivalent back in the day. People still want water-cooling, but it seems to be a desire that's separate from the need to actually cool the hardware.

Even as far back as the release Intel's first mainstream quad-core CPUs, such as the Core 2 Quad Q6600, air coolers were quickly becoming potent enough for newcomers to question the significant outlay involved with water-cooling. The new heatpipe-clad tower coolers were becoming more efficient at every step, and there's usually an air cooler that will enable you to push all but the hottest running CPUs to the max, albeit with additional noise.

However, with Intel's LGA1155 CPUs, we've seen time and time again that air coolers such as Thermaltake's Frio and BeQuiet Dark Rock Advanced are more than able to provide just as much overclocking headroom as a decent water-cooling kit, and with similar noise levels too. Our current LGA1155 thermal test kit is a case in question - we've overclocked our Core i7-2600K to a lofty 4.6GHz, and both the aforementioned coolers handled this overclock admirably.


Graphics cards are a slightly different matter, however, as we've found just as much reason to water-cool the current graphics cards such as the GeForce GTX 590 3GB as any previous generation. In fact, even mid-range graphics cards such as the GTX 560 Ti 1GB get quite warm and noisy under load, and many third party coolers haven't been able to tame them significantly.

Motherboards are a bit of mixed bag, though. I'd go as far as saying that I've had far fewer failures and stability issues since I've been water-cooling the motherboard in my PCs - the hot-running chipset on LGA1366 motherboards, for example, is almost certainly the reason for quite a few dead systems in our lab, as well as other problems I've read about in various forums.


However, water-cooling your motherboard is an expensive business - full cover blocks can retail for over £100, and most LGA1155 motherboards simply don't require shedloads of voltage either. With Intel and AMD's next-generation high-end CPUs on the horizon, it will be interesting to see how future families of motherboards fare on a day to day basis - will LGA2011 be another hot-running LGA1366 for example?

Aside from noise reduction, where water-cooling still has the edge in a few key areas, there is one other reason to invest in water-cooling. It looks fantastic. There's a reason why we award points to cases that look good, and why modding projects are so popular. Lots of us want to have a cool-looking PC and are willing to spend money achieving that goal. Thankfully, the water-cooling industry has taken notice and strived to meet the demand for a diverse and flexible range of hardware.

You only have to look at websites such as Aquatuning, Chilled PC and FrozenCPU to see the huge the range of components on offer these days, which makes it very easy to make a unique water-cooled PC. In addition, the huge range of gear is appealing to those who want to go one step further than just bolting a load of off-the-shelf parts together, and instead want to either mod their PC or even build it from scratch.

Even if the next generation of hardware doesn't notably benefit from water-cooling, there's always a small gap between air cooling and extreme cooling, and there will still be a huge market for it, for the simple reason that it's cool.

What do you think the future has in store for water-cooling? Have you been put off for any reason, or do you swear by it? Let us know in the forums.

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Hardware 25 - What, no Tanks?

Hardware 25 - What, no Tanks?

Posted on 8th Jul 2011 at 14:20 by Podcast with 11 comments

It's been a while since our last podcast so James, Paul, Antony and Harry had plenty to talk about when they took their seats in the studio this week.

First on the agenda was James and Paul's trip to Computex in Taiwan, where they got to see what the industry had planned for the next six months. Certain things were of particular interest to us though such as the LGA2011 boards being shown at the exhibition.

The other big slice of news that's hit since our last podcast is the launch of AMD's new desktop Lynx processors. The APUs (as AMD calls them) are potentially interesting for those looking for a low cost rig that's also capable of gaming.

Finally, we sneak in a little discussion about Intel's new 50-core maths co-processor card and attempt to answer a reader question about thermal compound.

As always, we've also set up our weekly competition, the lucky winner of which will walk away with a brand new Corsair VX550W PSU.

Hardware 25 - What, no Tanks?

As ever, the bit-tech hardware podcast features music by Brad Sucks, and was recorded on Shure microphones. You can download the podcast direct, listen in-browser or subscribe through iTunes using the links below. Also, be sure to let us know your thoughts about the discussion in the forums.

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Behind Battle Over Debt, a War Over Government

What makes a bipartisan ?grand bargain? so elusive is less the budget numbers, on which compromise could be in reach, than each side?s principles, which do not lend themselves to splitting the difference. President Obama wants deficit reduction, including tax increases for wealthier Americans and corporations. Congressional Republicans, prodded by a cadre of junior lawmakers, want a vastly smaller government constrained by lower taxes. The two are not the same thing.

Mr. Obama will make his case on Friday in a White House news conference, his third in just two weeks.

However this showdown is settled, it seems increasingly likely to define not only the legislative record of this Congress, divided between a Republican-controlled House and a Democratic-controlled Senate, but also the 2012 elections and Mr. Obama?s prospects for a second term.

The two sides met for less than two hours at the White House on Thursday, even as attention appeared to shift away from the prospect of a bipartisan budget agreement to the likelihood of a backup plan to raise the debt ceiling before the Aug. 2 deadline.

Having discussed spending cuts in past White House meetings, the negotiators considered the administration?s proposals for raising taxes, which Republicans have vowed to oppose. Mr. Obama previously had said they would meet again on Friday to decide whether they could reach a deficit-reduction deal; if not, they would spend the weekend negotiating a way to raise the $14.3 trillion debt limit, and defer the bigger budget-cutting clash.

Instead, at the end of Thursday?s session, he told the lawmakers to try to work something out and be ready for his summons to a weekend meeting.

Underlying the budget drama between the White House and Congressional Republicans is another compelling drama among Republicans, which exposes an ideological and generational gap. On one side are older, more senior conservatives like the two top leaders, Speaker John A. Boehner and Senator Mitch McConnell, the minority leader, who remember the budget fights and Republican setbacks of the 1990s and want some deal.

On the other are the proudly uncompromising junior lawmakers, many of them Tea Party sympathizers, whose ranks were so inflated by Republican gains in the midterm elections. Representative Eric Cantor of Virginia, the House majority leader, has emerged as their standard bearer, debating Mr. Obama in the White House sessions and then boasting of it afterward.

Senator John McCain of Arizona, one of the older generation, reflected the divide in an interview Thursday on Bloomberg TV.

?I think Eric Cantor is carrying out the mandate of last November, which was to stop mortgaging our children?s futures, while the president keeps talking about spending more money,? he said.

Mr. McCain then endorsed, as Mr. Cantor and most House Republicans do not, Mr. McConnell?s proposal to empower Mr. Obama to raise the debt limit through the 2012 elections in three stages, without prior approval of deep spending cuts.

Mr. McCain, mindful of the Republican defeat in a 1995 budget showdown with President Bill Clinton, said the McConnell proposal would absolve Republicans of blame for a default. ?But, it is the last option after we have explored everything else, and, frankly, I hope my colleagues have not forgotten what happened in 1995,? he said.

Republicans say the collisions between Mr. Cantor and Mr. Boehner are indicative of Mr. Cantor?s efforts to stay ahead of potential rivals for the speakership someday in keeping the allegiance of rank-and-file House Republicans.

Mr. Cantor helped torpedo behind-the-scenes discussions between Mr. Boehner and Mr. Obama. But now Mr. Obama, who earlier this year urged Congress to increase the debt limit without a companion measure for long-term budget cuts, has emerged to press for greater deficit reduction than Republicans are.

That is because he demands a ?balanced package? of both spending cuts and tax increases on the wealthy and corporations, while Republicans reject any new tax revenues.

Republicans have shown that their higher priority is not lower deficits, as it was for the party through most of the last century, but a smaller government. House Republicans in the spring passed a plan that would not balance the budget for three decades despite deep cuts in Medicare and Medicaid ? largely because it also deeply cut taxes, adding debt.

For Republicans, ?reducing the deficit implies tax increases, or the possibility of tax increases, and that?s not something they want to do under any circumstances because it doesn?t suit their political needs,? said Stan Collender, a longtime federal budget analyst and a partner at Qorvis Communications.

The party?s dynamic in the debt talks reflects the culmination of a 30-year evolution in Republican thinking, dating to the start of President Ronald Reagan?s administration. The change is from emphasizing balanced budgets ? or at least lower deficits ? to what tax-cutting conservatives have called ?starve the beast,? that is, cut taxes and force government to shrink.

The starve-the-beast philosophy is even more problematic now because the population is aging as baby boomers retire even as medical costs keep rising ? a combination that is driving the projections of an unsustainably growing federal debt.

While the new-generation Republicans venerate Mr. Reagan, those who were in Congress when he was president say he would not understand their refusal to compromise on a package of the size Mr. Obama proposes.

?He had a rule: If you can agree on 80 percent, take it,? said Alan K. Simpson, who was the second-ranking Senate Republican leader back then. ?He raised taxes 11 times in eight years,? Mr. Simpson added. ?He did it to make the country run.?

Almost lost in the tax debate with Republicans is how much Mr. Obama has conceded to them this year on spending cuts, including for those entitlement programs Democrats favor.

?He believes that we have now in front of us the potential to do something big ? the holy grail,? the White House press secretary Jay Carney said.

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?Decision Time? on Budget, Obama Tells Leaders

After a polite but inconclusive session that covered familiar ground and made no headway, Mr. Obama told the Congressional leaders to confer with their rank-and-file members over the next 24 to 36 hours to ?figure out what can get done,? said a Democratic official briefed on the negotiations.

The president said he might summon the leaders to the White House over the weekend if there was no progress; he has scheduled a news conference for Friday morning to argue his case publicly. On Capitol Hill, leaders of both parties were focused increasingly on a proposal by the Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, that could provide a way out of the stalemate on the debt limit.

?The White House talks are irrelevant, a sideshow,? said an aide to Senate Republicans involved in the negotiations, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the deliberations. ?They have been overtaken by events.?

Under the McConnell proposal, the president could request $2.5 trillion of additional borrowing authority in three installments ? enough to meet the government?s needs through the end of next year. With each request, he would have to propose an equivalent amount of cuts in federal spending over the next 10 years.

Mr. Obama reiterated his refusal to sign a stopgap measure, a Democratic official said, but left the door open to Senator McConnell?s plan as a fallback option. The president told the leaders he still believed there could be a landmark deal with savings of about $2 trillion over a decade, the official said.

Still, Mr. Obama, too, acknowledged that the daily high-level meetings at the White House had run their course. ?It?s decision time,? he said, according to the official. ?We need concrete plans to move this forward.?

Underscoring the growing urgency of the talks, the ratings agency Standard & Poor?s warned Thursday that there was a 50 percent chance that it would downgrade the government?s credit rating within three months because of the debt stalemate.

On Thursday, the leaders grappled with the most difficult issues politically for each party: cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, entitlement programs long defended by Democrats; and new revenues from the tax code, anathema to Republicans, who say they will not vote for anything resembling a tax increase.

Unlike the tone of previous meetings, which had gotten increasingly contentious, the atmosphere at the one-hour-and-20-minute meeting on Thursday was cordial, officials from both parties said. The House majority leader, Representative Eric Cantor of Virginia, who clashed with Mr. Obama on Wednesday, did not say a word, officials said. Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio, who had receded in recent days after his proposal for an ambitious deal was shot down by Republicans, spoke up more, they said.

Earlier in the day, Mr. Boehner also expressed some support for the compromise floated by Senator McConnell. It also drew favorable comment from the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, and the House minority leader, Representative Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California.

Mr. McConnell?s proposal would establish a joint committee of Congress, with lawmakers from both parties and both chambers, to identify ways of reducing budget deficits and the resulting need for more federal borrowing.

The committee might be expected to offer its recommendations by the end of this year. The House and the Senate would take up-or-down votes on the package of proposed cuts and savings, but could not amend it.

Senator Reid said he was ?in discussions with Senator McConnell? about his proposal. ?I told him I appreciated his work on this and I would do everything I could to try to be positive about it,? Mr. Reid said.

For all the talk of the McConnell plan on Capitol Hill, Democratic officials said it did not figure prominently at the White House. The administration ran through proposed changes to the tax code that would affect a wide range of loopholes and other breaks for wealthy individuals and corporations.

Revenue raised from these changes would be used to extend a cut in payroll taxes that has increased take-home pay for millions of workers. But Republicans balked at the president?s suggestion, repeating their opposition to tax increases, which they see as detrimental to economic recovery.

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